No matter what I asked my coach (about wrestling) he always knew the answer. Not only did he have answers, he had stories of lived out experiences to back his reasoning. He'd been around the sport a lot more than me. I had never tried or seen a move that he hadn't tried himself.
We had 5 teams at my highschool. (freshman, jv 1, jv 2, Varsity A and Varsity B) We had some guys with incredible talent that never quite reached their potential. We had some average athletes that ended up winning some tournaments and going to state. It was always interesting for me to watch how guys reacted to coach.
Some would roll their eyes at him. When you did that, you were saying that you're either smarter or better than him. Neither were the case. He knew more than all of us. He had to...he was our coach.
I coached wrestling at four high schools. I was always frustrated by the guys who talked back. I don't mean the guys who discussed and probed deeper... I'm talking about guys who talked back because they didn't want to push any further, or they didn't trust that what we were saying was best, or because of their pride they just thought they knew more.
It's silly, but really true that these 14 year old kids would not follow their coach because they couldn't understand what the point was. It just didn't make sense to them...logically. How insane is it that since a 14 year old kid can't understand something, it must be wrong?
Part of it is believing whatever you want to believe is a lot safer. You don't ever have to be wrong. You can be a god, but just following yourself (or with your coach if he happens to agree with you - that way you can feel like you're following him).
It'd be nice to have a coach that was like a buffet table...you could just sort of pick and choose whatever you wanted to listen to.
He tells you to run laps. I don't like that...so I'll choose to not follow you in that area.
He tells you practice is over...sounds good.
He tells you that you'll have to hit the weight room more...and you decide there are so many interpretations of weight rooms that you're just going to assume that he meant you should just live your life your way...and occasionally pick up something heavier than your socks.
It's a lot easier to have faith in a coach that tells you to do whatever you want. (as long as your intentions are good) "I've been saturated with culture telling me that I don't have to run, lift or show up at practice and things will still be great - so I'm going to not listen to you in this area"
It's nice to talk about how he's your coach. It's great to be on the team. You'd love to go to state with him...but totally follow him...that's just silly.
This is going to be a good discussion thread. . .
ReplyDeleteSince devil's advocate is one of the things that I know best:
It's also a lot easier to defer judgement (and the perception of reality) to a perceived god like a coach--which you do rationalizing this choice away to his omnipotence, so you can feel secure in not taking responsibility for reality and your choices in it. Why wrestle this way? Coach says to, and he knows better than me, he must be right. Why have an opinion about how to best work out? Coach says to, and he must be right. Why continue to play on a hurt shoulder, worsening a ligament tear? Coach says to, and he must be right. Why continue to lose more and more weight, or feast and starve the body unnaturally? Coach says to, and he must be right. Or at least, he doesn't stop it. Not all coaches, and not in all cases of course.
>>Some would roll their eyes at him. When you did that, you were saying that you're either smarter or better than him. Neither were the case. He knew more than all of us. He had to...he was our coach.<<
Or you're saying, "you might be right, but maybe you're not, and I'm going to try it my way, so I can have the same experience you had when you tried techniques your way, some which worked, some which didn't, but gave you the experience to be a great coach, even through failure." Maybe the purpose of wrestling is to be a good wrestler, whether or not that equals wins. Maybe the purpose of coach, just like fatherhood, is to help your son develop into his own essentially perfect self, in both his triumphs and mistakes, rather than a "champion" or "performer". Maybe a coach should delight in the talking back, and the opportunity that it provides to demonstrate that a coach and a man can hear criticism, be insulted, be rejected, stand firm in conviction, and offer wise words and encouraging, loving support when a wayward athlete tries something different and fails.
My guess is you're probably that kind of coach and father anyway.
Anyway, my initial point was really to speak to how "easy" your allegory to moral relativism makes it sound: "It's a lot easier to have faith in a coach that tells you to do whatever you want."
Bah! A true experience of moral relativism is deeply dark and harrowing, leaves one feeling existentially free and lost. Most of the atheists/agnositics that I know say "Sure I'd like to believe in God. . ."
Don't prop moral relativism up on the pedestal (sp?)of "that's taking the easy way out". It's a dark place.
"Orthodoxy" by Chesterton is a great book in part about the joy of faith, how much easier it is, in some ways.
yeah, i liked my coach in school. i hated running, but that guy WAS a god. plus he made us do aerobics to Eye of the Tiger and the Rocky theme. Best 8 minute workout of the practice for us all.
ReplyDeleteyou're right when you say it's crazy that a 14 year old would roll his eyes at coach when something seems off balance in his world. sorry, but 14 year olds are freshmen, and they may have been wrestling in junior high or longer, but high school is much much different and they need to learn the fundamentals before they can start to question the authenticity of coach. kind of like, you're not ready for solid food yet son, but i got this warm milk you should rely on for a while. maybe when you're a senior and you've seen the action and want to "experiment" with your own way, will that behavior be tolerated.
thanks for the post murph. i enjoyed coaching last year, and i feel i may miss it this year if i'm not back at a regular school. but, i've got an amazing opportunity to teach in a slightly different capacity.
great post. do you ever feel like you're taking crazy pills sometimes?
ReplyDeleteby the way, i still haven't seen your daughter.
Murph,
ReplyDeleteI had a freshman in college last year who told a story about her cheerleading coach. She had a small fracture in her ankle, but he told her to wrap it up and take pain medication. He insisted she continued to perform because they had a championship to win. She was a great cheerleader and had a full ride to the University of Hawaii. But because she continued to perform (at her coach's urging), she did serious damage to her leg. Many operations later she had to withdraw from Hawaii and quit cheerleading.
You're saying it's never ok to question authority? Those are DANGEROUS words.
My friend, you are one of the wisest men I know, but your analogy breaks down on many levels and seems to oversimplify life, faith, and our relationship with God.
But I still have a crush on you.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteYou still have the best blog on the planet (and several people have asked if this was in response to your post - to which I always respond, "Steve has a blog? I just know him as the guy who gives out candy and cigarettes to Jr. High kids..."
I would never say that it's never ok to question authority. I'm just pointing out how silly it is for a 14 year old (who has the ulterior motive of wanting to get out of the painful parts of practice) to question a coach who ultimately wants the little fella to succeed. I think we all want to follow someone who ultimately just sort of agrees with us...that's all I'm sayin, dog.
I'd say that analogies generally break down because they're just that...analogies.
They "seem to oversimplify life, faith and our relationship with God" much like the stories of the lost coin, sheep or son do(Did Sean just compare his writing to the Bible?!!?! sortta...holy God complex!)
I wouldn't say my life was like a coin, sheep or runaway - but there's certainly some truth in there that I can relate to. It's not apples to apples, it's apples to a very special episode of Blossom that helps to illustrate how apples are dealt with when they cross Six.
I would never say that every coach was always right - (see Marvin) so using anyone that isn't God is naturally going to break down in comparison. The analogy stands as just that, a simple comparison that might help someone see how silly we must seem sometimes in comparison to a coach that doesn't ask us to tape up broken ankles, but does call us to something higher that doesn't always agree with the theology of the society in which we live, but might fit into the theology of a very narrow gate.
The bottom line is, a guy Cheerleadering coach? What's that all about
But the authority in question is God.
ReplyDeleteQuestioning God is generally frowned upon.
And when God is the authority, the dangerous thing is questioning him or ignoring him altogether.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
ReplyDeleteIf I'm told to test his will, then ultimately I'm questioning.
or how about,
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.
Don't know what that means, I'm not educated in the interpretation of scripture afterall, but it sounds like someone else may have asked God a question about the master plan.
If He was fully human and had the balls to do this the night before his purpose was to be fulfilled...
again, I'm no expert but there are still some flaws to that "sunday school" answer.
I'm done here.
ReplyDeleteThat was just silly and unnecessary.
Sean,
ReplyDeleteI apologize; you are absolutely right...what IS up with a guy cheerleading coach?
I need to make a distinction. I don't question God; I question my perception of God. God is not wrong, but the way I perceive him can be way off. Since I can't speak directly to God the way I could speak to a baseball coach (before anyway jumps in and attacks that statement, you know what I mean), I have to always be challenging what I hear from him to make sure it's actually from him.
Someone made a comment on my blog about leaving his wife and kids if Jesus asked him to. My reponse would be to question whether or not I was hearing God correctly, not questioning whether or not I should actually do what God is calling me to do. I just believe that when we stop asking those questions, we begin to travel a slippery slope of following whims that may or may not be from God.
Does that make sense?
but at what point do you stop questioning your understanding and just do it?
ReplyDeletejosh's question was based on the premise of jesus actually walking up to you and telling you that, as was the original premise of Jesus flipping over tables at a gay wedding.
That's a good question Mike. I'm not really sure. Obviously, if Jesus showed up in the flesh I would follow him...no matter what he asked. No question about it.
ReplyDeleteBut he hasn't shown up in the flesh yet, so I struggle with knowing with 100% certainty what he is asking of me. So I believe we have to question our interpretations. You're right, at some point we have to act, but I'm sure there are dangers in acting too quickly or too slowly.
By the way, I love that you said you were done here and then commented again like 5 second later. :) I think our beer will be fun tomorrow.
I should have qualified that statement.
ReplyDeleteDone with Grizz.
I'm sure he's a great guy, but nothing good will come from us dialoging online at this point.
Anyone who knows Sean, would agree that he is the last people that would give a "sunday school" answer, he never even went to sunday school as a kid but was sunday school teacher of the year at KBC. He has the incredible gift of interacting with people in an understandable and real way but those words are also seasoned with Truth. I also think he really has the gift of discernment (which I sometimes hate when I get discerned) and has developed and used it so wisely in talking with adults, hs people, 5 year olds, believers in Jesus or not. And I know that Sean questions and thinks through and tests things but it is always against scripture and what God has said to be true. I think that this post is just to encourage others to do the same and to get after Gods heart and what He has said. I have no idea if this has anything to do with the price of beans but I got to say all of this about my husband though I think Steves "But I still have a crush on you" is probably his favorite comment. Now he can say what he meant...
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Sean is dreamy. From what I've seen and heard, he has the amazing gift of expressing the truth in love. Many people can do one or the other pretty well (including me), but I need to continue to grow in doing both, because that's exactly what Jesus did so perfectly.
ReplyDeleteAnd this may sound lame, but it's so cute that you stepped in to support him. I wish I had a wife who had my back.
I'm...so...lonely.
;)
Fuller,
ReplyDeleteshe has my front too...
Grizz,
I feel ya dog. I think we might agree one some things here. The first verse you referenced was Romans 12:1-2 which in the Message says,
"So here's what I want you to do, God helping you: Take your everyday, ordinary life--your sleeping, eating, going-to-work, and walking-around life--and place it before God as an offering. Embracing what God does for you is the best thing you can do for him.
12:2
Don't become so well-adjusted to your culture that you fit into it without even thinking. Instead, fix your attention on God. You'll be changed from the inside out. Readily recognize what he wants from you, and quickly respond to it. Unlike the culture around you, always dragging you down to its level of immaturity, God brings the best out of you, develops well-formed maturity in you."
the second verser you referenced ends with "not my will, but yours..."
ultimately that's what I'm trying to flesh out...
I'm off to Kung Fu Hustle with some homies...
I really need to read my stuff before I hit enter...
ReplyDelete-oops
sean = barishnikov
ReplyDelete(see first i had sean leapt like carl lewis right over that line and then i thought no thats too obvious so then i thought hmmm who else leaps and mikael b. came to mind and i thought id put him but it is kind of a long stretch so i am explaining so i dont have to later when people are like huh?)
ok so my real comment is this...for me it is how does what i think it SHOULD be measure up to what God says it IS? And it doesnt matter how i feel about ______ or how many _______ friends I have, it only matters how I love ______ people and befriend ______ people and live with ______ people in real life. (______ = whatever hot button topic we want to talk about)
I will start with saying, I am not trying to martyr myself here.
ReplyDeleteThanks Murph for your patience and understanding as you walk WITH ME through my (mis)understanding.
Truly your reputation precedes you (literally in this thread) of discernment and genuine care.
I'm sorry your comment thread was polluted by my immaturity. I will retreat as it's apparent I'm not yet fit to join in any "grown up" conversations.
To Mike,
I'm sorry this is the course of our interaction. For every individual the present perception is shaped upon previous experience. My lenses are completely different from your lenses and it shows in the level of maturity between the two of us. It's clear that I will never win an intellectual battle with you because clearly you've spent more time coming to terms with your faith and understanding of God. I can only ask your forgiveness for the past three days of, what I thought was challenging. As it turns out, I was only showing my immature side.
I hope all who have witnessed my discretions will be patient with me as I continue to grow.
Steve Bragg
It says I'm stupid, and he's smart. I'm nothing and he's everything. I'm ugly and he's much better looking.
ReplyDeleteIt kind of spans across two separate blogs.
I think you're kind of hot, in a big cuddly kind of way.
ReplyDeleteannie,
ReplyDeleteyou've had some really funny stuff lately...when I grow up my dream is to be you - is that weird? im sure ill call you in like 4 minutes
sean,
annie has your front? really? that sounds a bit weird...maybe my mind is just in the gutter
you have the greatest wife on the planet and i am in total agreement of her kind words about you - you sick of me yet ;)
bragg,
you're awesome - it takes a big man to say what you said
all of you,
is it weird that one of the highlights of my day is being able to read what you think - I just love it and I really am having a hard time not being obsessed with all of you
Steve,
ReplyDeleteReally? I can think of a dozen girls that would go on a date with you although I dont recommend trying to date them all. So...whats the hold up? That goes for you too Wes. And Im sure Mike and Steve B although I only cyberknow you. In fact I bet Jana would go out with every one of you. So you guys, lets get moving, you guys have your stuff and the shes will have their stuff but thats part of the risk of love.
Ok so now I sound like Heidi Fleiss.
Can you believe at one point I never commented on blogs at all?
Annie,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the support, but I've made a pact that I won't start dating until I have a pilot's license, a motorcycle, a really nice television set, and any other thing which will help me procrastinate on hitting up "that" scene.
Plus, my previous experiences have shown that those things aren't so much of a possibility when a "real" relationship has formed. Something about serving others, not being selfish, preparing for a future, etc. I'm just going through a phase, and I won't let my selfishness get in the way of really putting forth the effort a relationship requires. It's just not fair to me and especially not fair to her.
I'm sure I'll get there, but I'm not in any hurry to hurt anyone because of my previous hurts.
by the way, that pact was with myself - not necessarily endorsed in whole by others.
ReplyDeleteI was just thinking about one thing:
ReplyDeleteI think that the discussion on the comments page has veered from the topic of Murph's post:
Murph's post seemed to be about questioning the WISDOM of God's will.
The Comments have seemed to be about questioning the CONTENT of God's will.
It's okay to be unsure and confused about the CONTENT of God's will - what does he mean by saying this, that, or the other.
It's NOT okay to question the WISDOM of God's will. Once we are clear on what God is saying in the Bible, we're asking for trouble if we say to ourselves, "hmm... that isn't relevant anymore or isn't consistent with what I previously believed or thought."
So, there's a difference between questioning the CONTENT of God's will and questioning the WISDOM of God's will.
mike,
ReplyDeleteway to take us back to the point and back to the spiritual...
i personally really liked how the conversation had shifted to my dating life...can we just stay there? a girl can dream, right? ;)
Brad Schmitt=single
ReplyDeleteMike,
ReplyDeleteI disagree that it's not okay to question the wisdom of God's will. It may not go well for you, and depending on your concept of God it may disappoint Him, but He and love win in the end, whatever your personal fate might be. Not to worry, question away, He's going to be okay, be still and know He's God, right?
Your point begs the question of whether or not you believe the Bible actually represents God's will. Which I question all the time and is a discussion for another thread, maybe. But I'll hold fast to the fact that whatever I may think about the Bible's veracity, that's my issue, not God's. He doesn't need the Bible, or me. He probably loves both, but in the end my questioning works out just perfect for Him, even if He "hurts" because of it, because He's got it all under control, even the parts that He chooses not to control. The system is all set up according to His will, even the parts that He set up to be not according to His will. I like that about Him.
Jana...
ReplyDeleteI pray for you...
and I just wanted to be comment #30 on "Murph's" blog...
Doesn't the whole "Be still and know that I am God" thing seem to indicate that we should trust the wisdom of God rather than constantly doubting it?
ReplyDelete