In one interview Charles Barkley said:
I've joked about running for Governor before, but I'm really going to do it now.
I've lost around $10 million gambling. I bring about $50 million with me, so it's ok.
We need to stop this divide between the rich and the poor.
How could I screw up Alabama any worse than it already is?
I honestly believe that people will still vote for him...
I just read an interview with a famous local athlete who was talking about his kids being a top priority. One of his kids lives in Florida and one in California.
He sees them "every once in a while".
He's playing to "secure their future".
He owns 5 cars and lives by himself.
My best guess is that he's driving these cars around to make sure they're safe.....so in ten years he can drive one to California and one to Florida and secure his kid's future by giving them cars.
Who says athletes aren't role models?
also in the world of sports, Fuller beat me in ping pong...repeatedly
good picture
ReplyDeleteI missed that last sentence...it was written so small and in some weird font color. I believe it says something like, "Also in the world of sports, Fuller beat me in ping pong...repeatedly."
ReplyDeleteIs that what it says? Can other people check and verify that for me?
No fair...his shoelaces were untied.
ReplyDeleteUh, he needs new glasses...
er..he had strained his shoulder carrying around his kids..
Fuller...you were way too afraid to oppose me at PP last night?
I wonder what Ted Haggard was saying to his 5 kids this weekend.
ReplyDeleteWas his sin of lying as an evangelical leader as bad as his sin of a homosexual relationship and methamphetamine use?
Caroline,
ReplyDeleteI always believe our ultimate sin is hiding. In Genesis, the first thing Adam and Eve do after the "Fall" is to hide. They didn't bust out the internet porn; they didn't smoke a cigarette; they didn't get drunk; they didn't curse...they hid. We've been hiding ever since. God wants us to be naked (not literally) before him and one another. Haggard's ultimate sin was hiding, and now he faces the consequences of that decision.
He couldn't have had the power in the evangelical community he had without hiding.
ReplyDeleteIt's like it was with Bill Clinton and Martha Stewart. It was a catch 22. They hid the truth so they didn't lose their power and ultimately all three lost what was most important to them. Martha lost money, Clinton lost his political career and Haggard lost his religious prestige.
Amen, sister! Not to get into a whole thing here, but I'll never be allowed back into a place of significant church leadership unless I learn how to play the game and hide my junk. My question: how many people in church leadership are doing the same thing Haggard is, only they haven't been caught yet?
ReplyDeleteWhat a sad little system us Christians have built.
If you have major junk, you won't be allowed to be in a place of leadership unless you hide it... or don't have it.
ReplyDeletetrue
the solution isn't that you hide it - it's that you don't have it
we all have junk and the reality is that having a prostitute and taking meth is kind of major
blaming the "little system" for people hiding their felonies is like blaming the government for having laws...because if people would just hide their crimes, they wouldn't go to jail. There's some accountability in our system.
Is it really so wrong that there's some accountability? Are we really going to water everything down and say, "hey, we're all a bunch of goof balls who do dumb stuff....so everything is fine from now on"?
But my point is that junk is junk. People point fingers at other people's junk and say "that's not acceptable". Sin is sin. We all do it more than once everyday. We try not to, but we're human. Why is your sin less bad? Why are you (the collective you, not you, Sean) allowed to lead when you sin more than once daily? Why is a drug sin or a homosexual sin or an adultery sin worse than a little white lie, pride, or any other of the more socially acceptable sins. Should any church leader caught lying or being prideful or eating too much or not being perfect every moment be stripped of his (or her) leadership?
ReplyDeleteI buy into the Bible when it says that if you stumble at just one point, you're guilty of breaking it all...
ReplyDeleteI also think there are different consequences to different sins (and I'm guessing that you do as well)
If you've told a "white lie" because you're surprising someone for a birthday party, you're more likely to get asked to babysit my kids than the guy who was found guilty of murder, rape or kidnapping small children.
all bad - the consequences of your actions mean that you can't be alone with my children.
"Should any church leader caught lying or being prideful or eating too much or not being perfect every moment be stripped of his (or her) leadership?"
ReplyDeleteCaroline, what is your definition of leadership?
Dan, -holding a position as a leader and/or teacher.
ReplyDeleteIf you're a leader in an evangelical church and hold a belief that homosexuality is OK, you are to be stripped of your leadership. (Again, I am talking in hypotheticals, not about any one person right now).
Sean, I don't even have to commit the "greater" homosexual sin, I just have to respect people who live a homosexual lifestyle and believe that they are loved by God as they are.
I sin by condoning the sin, I guess? Is my sin bigger or worse than the leader who is prideful, or an overeater, or a liar, or lets his anger take him over, is a cheater, a thief, a plagiarist, and/or an imperfect person?
If you are a role model, and you sin, are you allowed to remain a leader? Which beliefs, actions or sins qualify for taking away your leadership?
This is what I'm confused about.
Caroline,
ReplyDeleteI'm saying that some stuff will get you in a position where you'll lose your ability to lead. I'm referencing getting a prostitute (male or female) and buying meth.
I would never refer to the "greater" sin of homosexuality.
I get what you're saying though...I think
Sean,
ReplyDeleteYou're such an apologist.
I blame a system that forces people into hiding or they lose leadership. Churches should be different than any other business or corporation - churches should be in the business of healthy people. And when people can't be open without fear of rejection, they can't get healthy. That is the system I am blaming.
Steve,
ReplyDeletelet me start by apologizing...
I apologize
It couldn't possibly be that I've thought through this as much as you and come to a different conclusion. I just toe the party line.
If a church rejects someone from leadership because they're seeing a prostitute and taking meth - it's the system's fault? You're right, I'm just following whatever President Church Man tells me to follow.
it's not the fault of the person cheating on their wife and taking the stuff I've heard you refer to as "that sweet sweet nectar that gets me through those rough days of winter"???
It just seems silly that we're blaming the system and it's their fault that people hide their junk. I feel like I'm arguing with Griffin, but a Griffin that's not quite as good at air hockey...
f a church rejects someone from leadership because they're seeing a prostitute and taking meth - it's the system's fault?
ReplyDeleteI think what steve is trying to say is it probably isn't going to get to this level if there are open doors and open communication in place prior to an individual's involvement getting this deep into substance abuse and [poor] decision making.
I mean, you don't wake up one day and start doing meth. Usually there are other "gateway" drugs (yeah, i went after school special on you, but it's also true). You don't decide to go get a prostitute until the "high" of other things fails to stimulate the person.
Would a policy that accepts an individual's stuggles, without removing them from their respected position, be something which leads leaders to health?
possibly - and let's assume for a second that they had those policies in place...
ReplyDeleteso now what do you do with a guy in this situation? Honestly, you wouldn't remove him from leadership?
Here's what I would do if I knew someone in church leadership having sex with a male prostitute...
ReplyDeleteFirst, I'd eat a burger with him at Red Robin.
Second, I'd beat him in ping pong.
Third, I'd call him an apologist.
Finally, I'd ask if the prostitute was cute, and if so, could I have his number.
If the rules are black and white, then how can you "think things through... and came to a different conclusion". If the Bible is clear on things, why doesn't everyone agree?
ReplyDeleteThis is not an attack, just a question that no one seems to be able to answer for me.
I love Jesus, I want Him in my life, and I love alot of the people in a church I've been attending but I know I will soon find myself an outsider if I reveal my true feelings. I need to hide (and lie by omission) to belong and it stinks. I know I'm probably not alone but I feel like if I hide/lie I may as well not be in church in the first place.
I feel like I'm in the Catch 22 I referred to before. It's not fair and it's not right.
Men can't "lie with other men" nor are they supposed to overindulge, lie, cheat, steal, be prideful or any more than meek and totally consumed with God's work. Everyone picks and chooses which rules they will follow and which they will not. If you sin, and all church leaders do because they're human, why take away leadership for only select sins?
It's a difficult question to answer because on one level we're now advocating that only perfect, well adjusted people are allowed in leadership. On the other side of the coin however, that is putting expectations on individuals to be perfect. They then hide all their junk so they can become well respected and fill roles others seem to find suitable.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying we shouldn't strive toward becoming "Christlike", but what's the dividing line between "authentic" persons and living the "model" life?
Sean,
ReplyDeleteWhy don't we remove gluttons from leadership? God doesn't seem to rank sins...that is left up to people. People have decided homosexuality is the ultimate sin and overeating is ok. I'm just wondering who got to rank our sins and why wasn't I asked to the party?
Steve,
ReplyDeletedidn't you read the prostitutes and meth part?
I feel like you're just reading what you want to read so you can be mad about this.
Murph, it sounds like you're the one who reads what you want to read.
ReplyDeleteI think the “big sin” “little sin” idea is a bit off base, but so is thinking that all sin is the same.
ReplyDeleteThe end result of ALL sin is the same as far as our relationship with God is concerned.
BUT...when we sin, our relationship with God is not the only relationship that suffers. Our relationships with each other and with our communities suffer. The extent to which these relationships will suffer is often times determined by how we sin. God HAS in a way ranked our sin; he designed creation and put us in relationship with each other. He gives us commands, not so that we have rules to follow for rules sake…he gives us rules to follow so we don’t get hurt.
Committing murder will mess up your relationships with the people around you more than eating one too many cheeseburgers will.....that’s a fact jack.
I absolutely agree with you, Dan.
ReplyDeleteSo how does having a homosexual relationship hurt anybody?
I'm sorry, I clicked "send" before typing my name.
ReplyDelete"Murph, it sounds like you're the one who reads what you want to read."
ReplyDeletesupported by...?
I'd love to talk about the specifics, but it seems like it keeps getting pointed to this one issue. It doesn't matter about the meth or the prostitutes?
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI respectfully disagree. I can find MANY people whose lives have been DESTROYED by overeating. And their friends and families feel the impact of that. Yet, go to any church and you'll find dozens of folks well overweight in church leadership. I'm not saying eating a cheeseburger is worse than murder - I'm saying God knows that all sin has the potential to destroy our lives, yet Christians choose what we condemn and what we condone.
And Sean...of course Haggard should have stepped down. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying we need to put systems in place that allow him to seek help before things blow up. Sure, some places do. But we both know that a lot of places don't. If only Haggard had some accountability back when all this started.
If only he had a blog...
So again, Steve, where do we draw the line that separates what is acceptable as a leader to process in healthy ways and what is deemed necessary for removal from leadership?
ReplyDeleteI like to agree that there needs to be more systems in place to prevent something of this magnitude from happening, but is porn the gateway? Is it marijuana? Is it the McRib (you know you saw that Simpsons episode)?
Won't someone answer me??!?
ReplyDeleteI know Mike Brown has a opinion. I know there are other anonymous commenters who would like to point out my ignorance. I'm looking for a real answer to a real question. Where is the line drawn between excessive sin to the point of removal and sin which can be discussed openly without the repercussions of losing a church.
Someone explain to me the difference...
I don't think there's a line. People want to point to one issue - homosexuality - and scream, "see how homophobic they are!"
ReplyDeleteI do think it's silly that a married guy cheats on his wife with a male prostitute while taking meth is seen by some as being on the "let's work this out, this won't destroy our church" side of keeping this person in a position to lead others.
so some would say that you could be the head of the boy scouts and be a registered sex offender
some would say you could be the Mayor of Washington D.C. and be a crack addict
some would say you could be a teacher and have a history of raping and killing small children
there is a line and it's silly to pretend there isn't
to say that a church shouldn't have accountability or repercussions to the actions of those in leadership is naive and contrary to the very Word they're hoping to spread
the problem is trying to explain a mature decision to someone who just doesn't want to hear it or isn't to a place where they understand that yet...
we can argue and squabble (it's a word) over the minutia of what is acceptable and what isn't - but we're always going to put the meth addict with a predilection for cheating on his wife with prostitutes on one side of this argument
other than that, let's take them one at a time
on a lighter note, I was in the Lakota West Wrestling room yesterday and they've got an amazing kids club program going. Look out for them in 2016
But when we take them one at a time, aren't we just waiting for the issue to reach the megaexplosion instead of reaching to the treatable stuff that wouldn't require removing them from leadership.
ReplyDeleteI don't know Dave, but if he announced that he had a lifelong addiction to the McRib and during this season of its availability, he hid money from Anita to feed his addiction. That's a sin right? It's hurting someone else. It's hurting his ability to be an accountable leader when he speaks on addiction Sunday morning.
Now it's a problem that needs to be dealt with. He felt he couldn't come forth when it was a nine trips through the drive through a day, because he was afraid of bringing this to light and being seen as a broken individual. And broken individuals aren't allowed to be in leadership. (At least that's a lie that is fed by the Enemy and is -like it or not- perpetuated by the organization.)
I'm not trying to argue with you because I don't agree with you. I do agree that we can't allow for child molesters in a classroom full of teenagers. We can't allow drug dealers to be Boy Scout leaders. We can't allow juiced up athletes to be role models (I'm still waiting on the lab results of Fuller's urine btw before making a complete ruling on the ping pong win).
But I have to continue to wonder if there would be fewer issues like these in the world if we didn't hide them because of public contempt.
You're right. We will continue to take them one at a time. But I think we'll always take them one at a time when it's too late.
And I look forward to spending Sunday afternoons watching Griff tear up kids club tourneys all over the city. Can't wait to get a schedule.
Oh, and after last year's dominion of Lakota West up in Brecksville, and all over this city, I don't think we'll need to wait until 2016 to see a team's domination. It's happening now.
ReplyDeleteit is - it'll be a while before they pass the Catholic schools that are recruiting though...and they only got 5th place at State.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree with you more about dealing with issues before they multiply. I would love to live in a world without public ridicule, but you're not going to be able to get Jon Stewart to not publicly ridicule the guy once he gets caught taking meth and sleeping with mr hooker. (I watched his show last night)
it's not just the church body or leadership that's going to publicly ridicule.
The young believers or folks still on the fence will cut and run and damage will be done.
I don't know if he had an accountability partner. We're all just guessing when we say that he didn't - or that there wasn't any kind of behind the scenes intervention. The problem is that it all blew up...and that's just sad....for everybody
I think it's okay that there is a division between what God may think/do about sin, and what people may think/do about sin.
ReplyDeleteI think, if you belive in Christian doctrine, it's logical and consistent to say "yes, in God's eyes all have fallen short, none are deserving of mercy, thus no one sin is worse in the eyes of God than any other" and also say "but the practical consequences to man on Earth mean that in the eyes of man, some sins are worse than others, and thus should be dealt with differently".
Luckily, I don't belive all that doctrine nonsense, because if I did, I'd have to be consistent and say "God sees all human beings as sinners and equally destable, thus no person is fit to be a leader in God's eyes, so nobody can tell me what to do, old man! Here's what I think of your rules! LET'S GO CRAZY BROADWAY STYLE!"
C'mon, you've seen that Simpsons too. . .
Jon Stewart-Bill O'Reilly. Two sides of the same coin. There are just more Bill O'Reillys in mainstream "news" and Jon Stewart is delegated to Comedy Central.
ReplyDeleteNothing can get me down today! Rick Santorum went down baby!