The Les-Bi-Gay Network at Purdue sponsored a one-day "Talking Fast" every year, in solidarity with those who felt that they could not come out of the closet and speak openly about their sexual orientation.
Every once in a while, on those days, you'd ask someone a question, and they'd hand you a card explaining that they weren't talking, and why.
Maybe this means that I'm a bad person, but my first reaction was always, "This is the best day of the year - finally, a day when the homosexual community will stop talking about how gay they are and just live life like normal people."
Those were my favorite days of the year. Well, that day and the first warm day of the year... ahem.
Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to be the minority in anything. I'm white, middle-class, male, straight, average height, average weight, college educated, good job.
I bet it would make me much more humble and much more sensitive if I walked a day in someone else's shoes who didn't share my majority status in everything.
You are a minority, Steve. You're a Christian on a University campus.
I would imagine that there are some similarities, there.
I would also imagine that being a minority is easier when one doesn't make it a point to remind everyone every five minutes that they are a minority (as is the case with some people in minorities). I think that a lot of people just love to play the victim/martyr for their "cause".
What if I have spent (and I have) a significant amount of time as a minority? Am I still not qualified to be sensitive and humble?
Or is the only way to be sensitive and humble to agree with you on everything, or think that it's good for people to whine all the time about their victim status?
Perhaps I can be sensitive and humble and still hold an opinion that is different from yours?
my first reaction was always, "This is the best day of the year - finally, a day when the homosexual community will stop talking about how gay they are and just live life like normal people...Those were my favorite days of the year.
This is not written in a tone of sensitivity nor humility Mike.
You are entitled to your opinion. I won't argue with your opinion, in fact I'd die to preserve your ability to make it. But to say what you say about homosexuals, in the case that they want to be a victim/martyr, rather than actually educate intolerant individuals through nonviolent protests, unity events, or actions of solidarity.
...not like other minority groups who have changed the face of nations in the past...
Humble or not, what if it really was my favorite day of the year?
What if it really was the one day of the year when I could walk on campus without being declared a bigot because I believe in Jesus?
What if it was the one day of the year when I could read the student paper without someone (straight or otherwise) flaunting their sexuality?
What if it was the one day of the year that the opinion page wasn't full of arguments over whether gay people are born gay or whether they choose to be gay (as if it actually mattered to the debate over the morality of homosexual behavior)?
What if it was the one day that I could talk to 100 different people without at least one of them notifying me of their sexual orientation?
What if it was the one day of the year when I didn't have to hear someone talk about spending their whole life being victimized because of their sexual orientation?
I can be humble and sensitive and still be glad that I got one day of the year off from being declared a bigot and a prude. Isn't that fair?
So you choose to establish yourself here as a bigot and a prude by flaunting ignorance and intolerance for someone of a different moral value than yours?
I find it interesting that you make these kinds of statements on a blog where the readership is most likely going to follow your basic value structure. Make the same statement on a street corner in Northside, Clifton, OTR, a blog of a homosexual then talk to me about my challenge of your perception.
Just a quick question. What will you do if your child comes home and says that he/she is gay? Will you love your child less? Will you make the same statements about the gay/minority community that you make now?
I encourage you to consider the impact your words have on people who don't buy into your belief structure. Is that going to breathe life into them or will it suck the life from having possibilities to let God work in their heart?
Brown vs. Bragg...all is right with the world once again. :)
Mike, I get your point. And I think there is some truth to it. I have heard many folks of minority status say those same things - they just want to live life and be treated like everyone else.
The problem is, if they just "shut up," the folks in the majority don't treat them like everyone else. I bet many gay people would love to just shut up and be able to marry, and yet, we refuse them that right. So, they have to make some noise in order to, as you say, "live life like normal people."
I'm not saying being black and being gay are the same thing, but what if civil rights leaders would have "stopped talking about how black they are and just lived life like normal people." Or if women would have "stopped talking about how female they are and just lived life like normal people."
From its birth, this country has been about the minority fighting for its right to live a free, normal life, and I have a hard time telling any group they shouldn't fight that same battle.
By the way, isn't it ironic how this happened on a post where Sean wasn't blogging?
i wonder if i should even get into this... but anyway, here's my 2 cents. (which feels a sec or two dated since 4 comments have come in since i started my comment. :)
i think it's totally possible to be humble and sensitive and express an opinion that's different from that of others. i don't think it's possible to be humble and sensitive without considering how your words/actions will be received by others (regardless of stance or opinion). or at the very least, it shows an area to work on. we'd all do well to grow in putting others first...
so... how did your day of blog silence go, murph? :)
Steve - I agree with your point about the need for minorities to speak up for themselves. I'm all for that, and think that it's important. But there's a difference between being vocal for the purpose of correcting a societal wrong (i.e. the Civil Rights movement) and being vocal for the purpose of being obnoxious in the absence of a societal wrong (i.e. the Purdue Les-Bi-Gay network). They were the most vocal group on campus, and were among the least likely to suffer institutionalized discrimination at Purdue.
If Christians spent every day calling people "fags" (and maybe we do, on the whole), and then spent one day not calling them "fags" - don't you think that homosexuals would think that was a good day?
That's how I felt about the Les-Bi-Gay network. Not a day went by that they didn't do something that at least implied, if not say outrightly, that I was a bigot because I was a Christian. One day a year, it was okay to be a Christian. That was a good day for me.
All that being said, my first comment wasn't very humble, admittedly, but it was a joke - and the joke was halfway self-deprecating, at that. The context of sensitivity to minorities was created AFTER my first comment. The first comment was meant to be humorous - that was the original context. The current context was created after-the-fact.
I know what I would do if your kid came home and admitted to being gay. I also know what I would do if my kid came home and admitted to being gay.
I'm not telling you what you should do Mike. I'm asking you because one day you will have to face the consequences of the comments you have made publicly. (It's kind of like 4 years ago today GW stood on that carrier with a banner that shouted 'Mission Accomplished' but i digress.)
How will you respond? And the question is rhetorical in nature. Something that might get you to consider the actual ramifications of both the words you choose and the context you place them.
I've noticed that you like to start a comment in the threads here and much later explain that it was written tongue-in-cheek. So I guess I need to change the way I read. But something tells me though that with others questioning or challenging at near the same level of understanding...
I'd be glad to tell my kids the same things that I've said here.
Don't make yourself a victim.
Don't call people names because you disagree with them.
Don't force or shove your views into other people's faces in an obnoxious manner simply for shock value.
Have a sense of humor.
As for how I would treat them, I would love them the same way as any other child of mine. It's hard to say exactly what I would do/say, especially since I don't have any kids right now. But, in general, I wouldn't guess that being a homosexual would change my feelings toward my child. And I would teach all my kids the same things regarding sexuality - particularly, that human sexuality is a tremendous gift from God to men and women, to be experienced in a marriage, by God's design. I plan to teach all of my kids, homosexual or heterosexual, to be obedient to God, practicing abstinence outside of marriage and fidelity inside of marriage. And I would teach them that there are things about all of us that make us unique and wonderful, and there are things about all of us that can make life incredibly difficult at times. But all of who we are is made to glorify God in one way or another - and so we should glorify God with our bodies, and not use the difficult parts of who we are as a reason to intentionally fail to glofiry God. Still, there is forgiveness and restoration for each of us as we fail to glorify God. I hope that I can be a model of repentance as well as a model of striving for holiness in front of my children.
As for the rest of what I've said here, I'm sorry if you didn't like what I said, and I'm sorry if this wasn't a good place to say it. I've read my comments over and over again, and I honestly don't think that I said anything wrong and I think that all of what I've said could be taken well or taken badly. Clearly, at this point, you're not going to believe the best about me or what I say, and instead consistently believe the worst -and so if I say something that could be taken well or taken badly, it will be, without fail, taken badly. That makes it incredibly difficult to say anything here without writing twelve paragraphs of disclaimers before I actually communicate my viewpoint. I'm sorry that it was taken badly - it wasn't meant to be taken badly. That's all I have to say about that.
Brown and Bragg both date the same woman; she gets pregnant and has a baby; tragically, she dies years later, leaving a teenage child parentless. So, the child tracks down Brown and Bragg and all three live together in a fabulous apartment.
And they have an adorable dog named "blogger."
And the daughter is a lesbian.
And it's called, "My Two Fathers," or "A Pair of Dads," or something like that.
Steve, if you would consider what it would be like to walk in the shoes of children from non-traditional / two-dad families, you would be more sensitive to the fact that their family situation is not funny and should not be considered suitable for sit-com material for the rest of you from "traditional" families to laugh at.
But, then I'm guessing you're going to claim that you were trying to be humorous and deny that you were passing judgment on non-traditional families. But I see right through you - there was no humor intended. Only pure, unadulterated hatred and self-righteousness.
I see you have a clear understanding of the use of hyperbole Mike. Except you've made the fatal flaw of using hyperbole for the sake of humor and used it and just become annoying.
I find it hypocritical that you would criticize me for placing culpability on you for not believing what I believe, but you do the exact thing to me for not following/practicing your structure. So where's the balance smart guy?
You wanted angry/frustrated Bragg to come out? You win. Since you said all you were going to say about that (wait, what happened to that statement?), I'll end my part here. I'm out.
Hi Mike. Do you know any children of non-traditional families? Ones I've met have been pretty well adjusted and loved.
Most (maybe not a few that you've met that you use to label all homosexuals) lesbian and gay people just want to be left alone to live their lives and have the same rights and priviledges under the law as everyone else does. They are not looking for your absolution and are not interested in your opinion about them- unless it relates to you trying to limit their legal rights, limit their right to be who they are or to publically ridicule them.
Gun owners can legally own guns to defend themselves and to (illegally) use them to kill people if they want to. Many would argue that owning a gun is immoral because Jesus wants us to turn the other cheek. They can cite it in The Bible. So should that religious group call for the illegalization of guns based on their morality?
Another religious group feels that blood transfusions are immoral. They can cite it in The Bible. Should the government listen to their morality and legislate accordingly for the rest of us?
How about those that cite in The Bible that you should not work on Sunday? There are provinces in Canada that have legislated that one. Should this country do that too?
Whose morality do you legislate? Whose view is most important? Quakers? Jehavah's Witnesses? Canadian Christians? Or You? Are you the only one with the right answer? And part of that is that homosexuals should not be afforded the same rights as you because you read it in your Bible? Do You get to punish them for their sin (in your eyes) by denying them the rights you have or is that God's job?
we should legislate my morality and my view is the most important. none of you know me, but i'm a great guy so no one should have a problem with this view.
This feels like walking up to someone and saying, "Hey, I'm not going to talk today."
ReplyDeleteWait, you just did talk.
crap!
ReplyDeleteThe Les-Bi-Gay Network at Purdue sponsored a one-day "Talking Fast" every year, in solidarity with those who felt that they could not come out of the closet and speak openly about their sexual orientation.
ReplyDeleteEvery once in a while, on those days, you'd ask someone a question, and they'd hand you a card explaining that they weren't talking, and why.
Maybe this means that I'm a bad person, but my first reaction was always, "This is the best day of the year - finally, a day when the homosexual community will stop talking about how gay they are and just live life like normal people."
Those were my favorite days of the year. Well, that day and the first warm day of the year... ahem.
Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to be the minority in anything. I'm white, middle-class, male, straight, average height, average weight, college educated, good job.
ReplyDeleteI bet it would make me much more humble and much more sensitive if I walked a day in someone else's shoes who didn't share my majority status in everything.
You are a minority, Steve. You're a Christian on a University campus.
ReplyDeleteI would imagine that there are some similarities, there.
I would also imagine that being a minority is easier when one doesn't make it a point to remind everyone every five minutes that they are a minority (as is the case with some people in minorities). I think that a lot of people just love to play the victim/martyr for their "cause".
Mike, you are the most ignorantly brilliant man i know.
ReplyDeleteCome on... what part of what I said isn't true?
ReplyDeleteUm, I would strongly suggest you again read what Steve said above and meditate on the idea of humility through experiencing someone else's reality.
ReplyDeleteThen you will find what is untrue about your statement(s).
What if I have spent (and I have) a significant amount of time as a minority? Am I still not qualified to be sensitive and humble?
ReplyDeleteOr is the only way to be sensitive and humble to agree with you on everything, or think that it's good for people to whine all the time about their victim status?
Perhaps I can be sensitive and humble and still hold an opinion that is different from yours?
my first reaction was always, "This is the best day of the year - finally, a day when the homosexual community will stop talking about how gay they are and just live life like normal people...Those were my favorite days of the year.
ReplyDeleteThis is not written in a tone of sensitivity nor humility Mike.
You are entitled to your opinion. I won't argue with your opinion, in fact I'd die to preserve your ability to make it. But to say what you say about homosexuals, in the case that they want to be a victim/martyr, rather than actually educate intolerant individuals through nonviolent protests, unity events, or actions of solidarity.
...not like other minority groups who have changed the face of nations in the past...
Humble or not, what if it really was my favorite day of the year?
ReplyDeleteWhat if it really was the one day of the year when I could walk on campus without being declared a bigot because I believe in Jesus?
What if it was the one day of the year when I could read the student paper without someone (straight or otherwise) flaunting their sexuality?
What if it was the one day of the year that the opinion page wasn't full of arguments over whether gay people are born gay or whether they choose to be gay (as if it actually mattered to the debate over the morality of homosexual behavior)?
What if it was the one day that I could talk to 100 different people without at least one of them notifying me of their sexual orientation?
What if it was the one day of the year when I didn't have to hear someone talk about spending their whole life being victimized because of their sexual orientation?
I can be humble and sensitive and still be glad that I got one day of the year off from being declared a bigot and a prude. Isn't that fair?
So you choose to establish yourself here as a bigot and a prude by flaunting ignorance and intolerance for someone of a different moral value than yours?
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that you make these kinds of statements on a blog where the readership is most likely going to follow your basic value structure. Make the same statement on a street corner in Northside, Clifton, OTR, a blog of a homosexual then talk to me about my challenge of your perception.
Just a quick question. What will you do if your child comes home and says that he/she is gay? Will you love your child less? Will you make the same statements about the gay/minority community that you make now?
I encourage you to consider the impact your words have on people who don't buy into your belief structure. Is that going to breathe life into them or will it suck the life from having possibilities to let God work in their heart?
Brown vs. Bragg...all is right with the world once again. :)
ReplyDeleteMike, I get your point. And I think there is some truth to it. I have heard many folks of minority status say those same things - they just want to live life and be treated like everyone else.
The problem is, if they just "shut up," the folks in the majority don't treat them like everyone else. I bet many gay people would love to just shut up and be able to marry, and yet, we refuse them that right. So, they have to make some noise in order to, as you say, "live life like normal people."
I'm not saying being black and being gay are the same thing, but what if civil rights leaders would have "stopped talking about how black they are and just lived life like normal people." Or if women would have "stopped talking about how female they are and just lived life like normal people."
From its birth, this country has been about the minority fighting for its right to live a free, normal life, and I have a hard time telling any group they shouldn't fight that same battle.
By the way, isn't it ironic how this happened on a post where Sean wasn't blogging?
Before I answer that, indulge me for just a second:
ReplyDeleteWhat do YOU think that I would do if my child came home and told me that he was a homosexual?
i wonder if i should even get into this... but anyway, here's my 2 cents. (which feels a sec or two dated since 4 comments have come in since i started my comment. :)
ReplyDeletei think it's totally possible to be humble and sensitive and express an opinion that's different from that of others. i don't think it's possible to be humble and sensitive without considering how your words/actions will be received by others (regardless of stance or opinion). or at the very least, it shows an area to work on. we'd all do well to grow in putting others first...
so... how did your day of blog silence go, murph? :)
Steve - I agree with your point about the need for minorities to speak up for themselves. I'm all for that, and think that it's important. But there's a difference between being vocal for the purpose of correcting a societal wrong (i.e. the Civil Rights movement) and being vocal for the purpose of being obnoxious in the absence of a societal wrong (i.e. the Purdue Les-Bi-Gay network). They were the most vocal group on campus, and were among the least likely to suffer institutionalized discrimination at Purdue.
ReplyDeleteIf Christians spent every day calling people "fags" (and maybe we do, on the whole), and then spent one day not calling them "fags" - don't you think that homosexuals would think that was a good day?
That's how I felt about the Les-Bi-Gay network. Not a day went by that they didn't do something that at least implied, if not say outrightly, that I was a bigot because I was a Christian. One day a year, it was okay to be a Christian. That was a good day for me.
All that being said, my first comment wasn't very humble, admittedly, but it was a joke - and the joke was halfway self-deprecating, at that. The context of sensitivity to minorities was created AFTER my first comment. The first comment was meant to be humorous - that was the original context. The current context was created after-the-fact.
I know what I would do if your kid came home and admitted to being gay. I also know what I would do if my kid came home and admitted to being gay.
ReplyDeleteI'm not telling you what you should do Mike. I'm asking you because one day you will have to face the consequences of the comments you have made publicly. (It's kind of like 4 years ago today GW stood on that carrier with a banner that shouted 'Mission Accomplished' but i digress.)
How will you respond? And the question is rhetorical in nature. Something that might get you to consider the actual ramifications of both the words you choose and the context you place them.
I've noticed that you like to start a comment in the threads here and much later explain that it was written tongue-in-cheek. So I guess I need to change the way I read. But something tells me though that with others questioning or challenging at near the same level of understanding...
I'd be glad to tell my kids the same things that I've said here.
ReplyDeleteDon't make yourself a victim.
Don't call people names because you disagree with them.
Don't force or shove your views into other people's faces in an obnoxious manner simply for shock value.
Have a sense of humor.
As for how I would treat them, I would love them the same way as any other child of mine. It's hard to say exactly what I would do/say, especially since I don't have any kids right now. But, in general, I wouldn't guess that being a homosexual would change my feelings toward my child. And I would teach all my kids the same things regarding sexuality - particularly, that human sexuality is a tremendous gift from God to men and women, to be experienced in a marriage, by God's design. I plan to teach all of my kids, homosexual or heterosexual, to be obedient to God, practicing abstinence outside of marriage and fidelity inside of marriage. And I would teach them that there are things about all of us that make us unique and wonderful, and there are things about all of us that can make life incredibly difficult at times. But all of who we are is made to glorify God in one way or another - and so we should glorify God with our bodies, and not use the difficult parts of who we are as a reason to intentionally fail to glofiry God. Still, there is forgiveness and restoration for each of us as we fail to glorify God. I hope that I can be a model of repentance as well as a model of striving for holiness in front of my children.
As for the rest of what I've said here, I'm sorry if you didn't like what I said, and I'm sorry if this wasn't a good place to say it. I've read my comments over and over again, and I honestly don't think that I said anything wrong and I think that all of what I've said could be taken well or taken badly. Clearly, at this point, you're not going to believe the best about me or what I say, and instead consistently believe the worst -and so if I say something that could be taken well or taken badly, it will be, without fail, taken badly. That makes it incredibly difficult to say anything here without writing twelve paragraphs of disclaimers before I actually communicate my viewpoint. I'm sorry that it was taken badly - it wasn't meant to be taken badly. That's all I have to say about that.
Ok, my sitcom idea:
ReplyDeleteBrown and Bragg both date the same woman; she gets pregnant and has a baby; tragically, she dies years later, leaving a teenage child parentless. So, the child tracks down Brown and Bragg and all three live together in a fabulous apartment.
And they have an adorable dog named "blogger."
And the daughter is a lesbian.
And it's called, "My Two Fathers," or "A Pair of Dads," or something like that.
it's been more than one day sean.
ReplyDeleteSteve, if you would consider what it would be like to walk in the shoes of children from non-traditional / two-dad families, you would be more sensitive to the fact that their family situation is not funny and should not be considered suitable for sit-com material for the rest of you from "traditional" families to laugh at.
ReplyDeleteBut, then I'm guessing you're going to claim that you were trying to be humorous and deny that you were passing judgment on non-traditional families. But I see right through you - there was no humor intended. Only pure, unadulterated hatred and self-righteousness.
You are an evil, evil man, Steve Fuller.
...
are we having fun, yet?
Wasn't there a sitcom in the 1980s or early 90s called "My Two Dads"? If I remember correctly, Paul Reiser was one of the dads...
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm pretty sure it's the exact same premise--minus the lesbian twist.
Liz,
ReplyDeleteReally?
That was kinda the whole point.
I remember having a crush on the girl in the show.
ReplyDeleteIs it okay that I said that? Or did I just offend someone?
She was like 12. Pervert!
ReplyDeleteI was like 11.
ReplyDeleteYou have offended me. As a result, I shall never even consider following Jesus.
Please be more kind in the future.
I see you have a clear understanding of the use of hyperbole Mike. Except you've made the fatal flaw of using hyperbole for the sake of humor and used it and just become annoying.
ReplyDeleteI find it hypocritical that you would criticize me for placing culpability on you for not believing what I believe, but you do the exact thing to me for not following/practicing your structure. So where's the balance smart guy?
You wanted angry/frustrated Bragg to come out? You win. Since you said all you were going to say about that (wait, what happened to that statement?), I'll end my part here. I'm out.
Hi Mike. Do you know any children of non-traditional families? Ones I've met have been pretty well adjusted and loved.
ReplyDeleteMost (maybe not a few that you've met that you use to label all homosexuals) lesbian and gay people just want to be left alone to live their lives and have the same rights and priviledges under the law as everyone else does. They are not looking for your absolution and are not interested in your opinion about them- unless it relates to you trying to limit their legal rights, limit their right to be who they are or to publically ridicule them.
Gun owners can legally own guns to defend themselves and to (illegally) use them to kill people if they want to. Many would argue that owning a gun is immoral because Jesus wants us to turn the other cheek. They can cite it in The Bible. So should that religious group call for the illegalization of guns based on their morality?
Another religious group feels that blood transfusions are immoral. They can cite it in The Bible. Should the government listen to their morality and legislate accordingly for the rest of us?
How about those that cite in The Bible that you should not work on Sunday? There are provinces in Canada that have legislated that one. Should this country do that too?
Whose morality do you legislate? Whose view is most important? Quakers? Jehavah's Witnesses? Canadian Christians? Or You? Are you the only one with the right answer? And part of that is that homosexuals should not be afforded the same rights as you because you read it in your Bible? Do You get to punish them for their sin (in your eyes) by denying them the rights you have or is that God's job?
Just wonderin'
we should legislate my morality and my view is the most important. none of you know me, but i'm a great guy so no one should have a problem with this view.
ReplyDelete